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Episode 5: The Future of Cities

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Transcript for Episode 5: The Future of Cities


JULIÁN CASTRO was the mayor of San Antonio, Texas from 2009 - 2014. He also served as Secretary of Housing and Urban Development from 2014 - 2017.

JANETTE SADIK-KHAN was Commissioner of New York City Department of Transportation from 2007 - 2013 under Mayor Michael Bloomberg she is now a principal at Bloomberg Associates. She is the author of Streetfight: Handbook for an Urban Revolution.


Danielle Mattoon: Welcome to the World As You’ll Know It. A podcast about life after Covid-19. I’m your host Danielle Mattoon. If we think about the pandemic as a giant global re-set, what challenges and possibilities will it bring? That’s the question this show is asking. Each week, we invite an established journalist to host a conversation with an expert in their field about how Covid, and our response to it, will affect the future. This week, we’re talking about the future of cities.

Our host is Michael Kimmelman, who has been writing about cities for years in his role as the Architecture Critic for The New York Times. And in a departure from previous episodes, he will be hosting two conversations. The first, about cities and housing, is with Julián Castro, the former mayor of San Antonio, Texas who also served as Secretary of Housing and Urban Development under President Obama.

The second conversation will focus on cities and transportation. Here Michael will talk to Janette Sadik-Khan the former commissioner of the New York City Department of Transportation under Mayor Bloomberg.

Here is Michael’s conversation with Julian Castro.

Michael Kimmelman: So Secretary Castro thank you for being here today and It's good to see you again. You know, I don't know if you recall, but you came to cities conference I organized at The Times, about five years ago. And we spoke at that time about various crises, which had to do with homelessness and housing prices and the digital divide. And all of that seems as much of a problem now as it ever was, but somehow, it also seems in another century. So. Let's go back, I suppose, to the beginning of the year, and just pretend that it's January or whatever date before March. What would you describe as the sort of discussion about cities at that point?

Julián Castro: Before COVID-19, a lot of the discussion about cities has been about the growing challenges in cities with affordable housing, because we'd seen the rents continue to spike all over the country. You know, going into the cities, which I did plenty of during the campaign as well, one of the things I would consistently hear about was a dissatisfaction with displacement and gentrification. Whether you're talking about New York City or Atlanta or any number of other places on the ground, hearing from people over and over about their concerns of not being able to afford to live in their neighborhood and the changing nature of the neighborhood. And not so much wanting to just wipe it all away and stop it, but wanting to be able to be a part of it and still enjoy the neighborhood that they've known.

Michael Kimmelman: Yeah. I'm glad you used the word displacement, because gentrification...I remember talking to the mayor of Detroit not so long ago. And he was boasting about areas of the city that had been gentrified, because of course in that context, it meant some form of investment. But it's become one of those words. Really, the issue is displacement, right, this fear that development and new things that happen in communities are going to somehow threaten existing communities, especially poor communities.

Julián Castro: Yeah Absolutely. I saw that across the country. I think a lot of those issues have really come to a head over the last couple of years. That's what we were facing, going into the emergence of COVID-19.

Michael Kimmelman: I mean one could add to that maybe increasing problems of homelessness. Certainly here in big cities.

Julián Castro: Well, in the Obama administration, during those years of the Obama administration, homelessness overall went down by about 10%. Veteran homelessness went down from 2010 to 2016 by 47%. So we were headed in the right direction. In the last two years, those numbers have started to tick back upward. So absolutely, the other conversation about cities we were hearing, and that you would see with your own eyes, would be these encampments. I visited one of these in Oakland, and you had a combination of tents, dilapidated old trailers, just amazing to see, in a visually stark way, such an expression of poverty. People didn't usually see that. And so there was a growing consciousness, I think, about homelessness. And people have different ways that they think we need to solve that challenge. But there was no denying that it was growing.

Michael Kimmelman: Since you mention homelessness, in the Bay area, I remember there was a report not long ago by the University of California in San Francisco. And it said that, which I thought was born out by what you see on the streets, that now I think 44% of homeless people in San Francisco, in the San Francisco Bay area, are first time homeless over the age of 50. So I looked up further how to unpack that number. And it turned out that in, I think, 1990, nationally speaking, that constituted 11% of the homeless population, people first time homeless over 50. Now it's 50% of the homeless population. So clearly, this is not just the old problems that have to do with addiction and mental health, but it has to do also with economic hardship and losing jobs.

Julián Castro: Absolutely.

Michael Kimmelman: And so COVID enters the scene, and we have 30 million people or something right now threatened with eviction and a whole different sort of landscape of economic hardship for housing.

Julián Castro: And both in terms of housing, in terms of having to seek unemployment benefits, and going to food banks. I had this fascinating conversation the other day with the director of the San Antonio Food Bank. Before COVID-19, they were serving about 60,000 families a week. Post-COVID 19, during this time period, they're serving 120,000 families. And he said that he thought, based on the research that they've done, that about 50% of those people that came to get sacks of groceries during their lines during COVID were new to this. This was the first time that they'd ever had to avail themselves of a food bank. And so it is fascinating what we have with COVID-19. It's just accelerated that effect that you're talking about.

Michael Kimmelman: Yeah, I mean, it’s also created another problem, right, which is that you have now in cities like New York where I am now, an affluent class of people, who, many of whom fled town. You have crumbling tax revenues. And there’s a need to bring back affluent population and secure businesses, make sure they don’t leave. You know, how do you balance that with obviously these now growing needs of a broadened class of people?

Julián Castro: I think this is where cities have to go full bore into investing in a common denominator here, which is quality of life. Think about the role that parks are playing these days. Our libraries, the arts. Your question is about attracting people back, making sure you keep folks and then also of course, providing a reason for people who are still there to stay. You want to make a city that's appealing to everyone. I believe that those, those things I just mentioned are going to be more important than ever in maintaining this fabric of the city.

Michael Kimmelman: Yeah, I mean It is a hard sell, as you say because, you know, the mayor here in New York is being chastised by business leaders for not making clear that quality of life, by which I think they mean safe streets, subways, sanitation, and so forth -- basic stuff are being taken care of. So things like the arts and, parks, often -- those are a hard sell I think, don’t you? Economically.

Julián Castro: They are. You absolutely need to get the basics of the city right or else people will go somewhere else. And so basic infrastructure, basic public safety and so forth. But the city throughout time, throughout history and in 21st century America goes beyond just those basic functions. If somebody wanted those things, right I mean they could go live in many suburbs that don’t really cater much to those quality of life aspects. And so I actually believe that if you're a mayor out there you cover the basics but get creative and focus on those things that define why people want to live in a great city in the first place.

Michael Kimmelman: Yeah. So okay, so put your mayor's hat back on….I mean, what would be your top priority now? Two or three things? What would you be pushing?

Julián Castro: I mean, number one, safety… but just sort of spinning this forward a little bit, we know that we're going to have tough times when we’re talking about city budgets. We need to figure out how we can smartly use the resources we have and whether we have to garner new revenues to be able to help the community get back up on its feet. Here in San Antonio, for instance, they’re running an eighth of cent sales tax increase in November to invest in workforce development. We need to put people back to work. The city needs to play its part along with the state government, the federal government and of course the private sector.

Michael Kimmelman: Yeah. You mentioned also. Look, the problems are huge and you can't solve everything with an eight of a cent.

Julián Castro: No doubt, no doubt.

Michael Kimmelman: Of course mayors alone can't alone solve the problems we're talking about. One of things you just mentioned was private money, and one of the strategies for financing things basically has been public/private partnerships. But there's been growing resentment about these arrangements, which by their nature benefit private interests as well as public ones. So, how do you see the role of private money going forward?

Julián Castro: When it comes to housing, we absolutely should invest more public dollars in housing opportunity. I believe that we need to recommit ourselves as a nation to smart public housing. We have about 1.1 million units of public housing. Every year we lose 10,000 units to disrepair. NYCHA in NY is a perfect example of so many of the challenges that public housing authorities face. You’re talking about dilapidated units, dangerous units, waitlists for public housing and for section 8 vouchers, I mean it just runs the gamut. You're on a hampster wheel going nowhere. At the same time, I also recognize that, look, we have a system in place that absolutely is intertwined with the private sector. You think of probably the most effective way that we’ve created affordable units over the last few decades – the low-income-housing tax credit. In addition to that, the section 8 program itself, housing choice vouchers -- essentially that give somebody a voucher to go into the private market and get the housing that they choose. So those are opportunities to engage the private sector. Now it would not be a surprise to anybody listening that I’m a big fan of greater governmental investment in something like affordable housing. But I also do think that there is a role for the private sector. The FHA is a great example of that. And we’re not just going to walk away from all of that, obviously. The private sector has a role to play.

Michael Kimmelman: You know It is interesting. I think most Americans may not realize how much the government has gotten out of the public housing business over the last 50 years, really it's to back to Nixon. If you suddenly were President and you now could enact some sort of housing policy at a federal level, what are the two or three basic points that you would try to pursue, to ensure both the distribution of that housing, and then the location of that housing, so that it had the best effect on the people who live there?

Julián Castro: I'd make sure that we're investing so that we have ample supply of housing that's affordable to the middle class and lower income Americans, as the rents have skyrocketed. That we get resources directly into the hands of middle-class and lower income families, so they can get into that housing. And also that we do something the Trump administration has absolutely turned its back on, which is to really enforce the Fair Housing Act of 1968, so that you ensure that we get closer to fair housing opportunity for everyone in this country. The last analysis I remember that HUD had done from a few years ago was that when a Black American goes into the housing market, trying to get an apartment or a home, they're still 10 to 12% more likely to be discriminated against, versus a non-Hispanic white. And Latinos also face that, Asian-Americans, Native Americans, so we need a policy that enforces the Fair Housing Act. We have to be mindful of what's happening in terms of displacement. Well, how do you make a policy that both creates greater affordable housing opportunity, but also helps ensure that people can stay in place, if that's what they want to do?

That, to me, is the challenge, is that the rubber hits the road when you get to, how do you do that? And in San Francisco and in New York, particularly for HUD, when I was there, we were grappling with, okay, when an affordable housing project goes up, under our civil rights laws, under the Fair Housing Act, how much are we able to do to give preference, for instance, to people who have lived in the community already, so that they can stay? Righ? Without running afoul of the law? That's where it gets interesting, right?

Michael Kimmelman: Because they're not the only people who need housing, but there is a desire to keep the community together.

Julián Castro: Well, and also, because it becomes race-conscious because you may have an aggregation of Latinos that live in an area or African-Americans that live in an area or people of other backgrounds. And so if, in fact, that policy ends up overwhelmingly favoring people of one background, then do you run afoul of the Fair Housing Act or other civil rights laws? It can be a legal minefield.

Michael Kimmelman: Yeah. Let's zoom out for a second and look at the future of cities. What's your reaction to the pandemic mantra that cities are dying now?

Julián Castro: No! Yeah, no, no, no, look, I completely get it, right? We've read these articles about people leaving San Francisco, people leaving New York. I don't think so. I believe that there is something about cities that is both charming and also is basic to the human experience and what people want. People, as has often been said, are social beings. Think about why this has been such a shock to so many of us. I mean, people are not able to spend time in person together at birthday parties or weddings or a graduation, or even, sadly, people's funerals. And everybody misses that. They miss going to the movies. And so as long as that is part of the human experience and I believe it always will be, then there will always be a role for cities. It may not look the same. And I do think that, at least in the short term, we may see more growth in some of the suburbs and even outlying areas from there. But I'm confident that cities are always going to play a prominent role in our national experience, in the human experience.

Michael Kimmelman: Of course, after 9/11, the smart money was everyone's going to abandon the cities. Businesses will leave New York. No one's ever going to build another tall building again.

Julián Castro: It's just gotten more and more expensive.

Michael Kimmelman: The biggest skyscraper construction boom in American history. So I'm with you on that. I think that's unlikely. I want to switch gears here to talk a little bit about the city you grew up in -- the city where you became mayor or and now are living in again once more. Maybe you can tell me a little bit about growing up in San Antonio?

Julián Castro: I grew up on the West side of San Antonio in the '70s and '80s. And the West side of San Antonio was very much economically segregated and ethnically segregated, basically lower income and lower middle income, over 80% Mexican-American. My brother and I went to the public schools there on the West side. But it was an exciting neighborhood in so many ways. People would sit out on the front porch in the evening. My grandmother had friends in the neighborhood, and they would sit on the porch and drink an old Milwaukee at night, and the kids would be running around. And you had a whole bunch of characters in the neighborhood. There was a little convenience store or tienda as they say in Spanish, and the panadería,the bakery, and Mexican restaurants around there that we would walk to. And there was a real sense, I think, of community and of character to it, that I know certainly shaped who I am. And like a lot of parents in so many ways I miss that for my kids. Because I don't live that far away from where I grew up, but a greater sense of community, of safety, of, you know, knowing people around, I think a lot of that is missing. It's not the same. And so how do we build communities that do provide opportunities like that?

Michael Kimmelman: It's interesting that you described the city as essentially a town. I myself grew up in a neighborhood in New York City, in the Village, and it was a village. Increasingly in this country we've created this cultural divide, right, between the rural and the urban, but that shared desire for community and place is really not owned by a rural community. It's felt by people in cities too. So, pulling back, and thinking about all the challenges we've talked about in the context of crises creating opportunities, just to end, what do you think our greatest opportunity coming out of this is now?

Julián Castro: Creating a sense of national purpose. I mean people who were around for the moon landing. A sense of common unity. There’s a moment that we have here under the right hands of leadership where we may be able to create a more common sense of purpose and unity.

Michael Kimmelman: Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to talk to you, and I'm grateful.

Julián Castro: Thank you.

Michael Kimmelman: It’s a pleasure.

Danielle Mattoon: Housing is of course one huge challenge facing cities. Transit is another. Janette Sadik-Khan ran the New York City Department of Transportation under Mayor Bloomberg. In order to weather this pandemic and prosper after it, she says, investing in transit must be a number-one priority. Here’s her conversation with Michael.

Michael Kimmelman: Janette, it's good to talk to. Thanks for joining.

Janette Sadik-Khan: Great to be here, Michael.

Michael Kimmelman: You were the transportation commissioner in New York for years and in that role kind of a human pinata -- criticized for bringing about a lot of change to the city -- bike lanes, pedestrianizing streets, making parking areas into public plazas. So you know how change happens, how hard it can be to bring about, and also what the results can be. We wanted to talk today since we're at this critical juncture where a lot of crises have converged for cities: the pandemic, an economic crisis, a racial reckoning. The Regional Plan Association, a not-for-profit pillar of the planning establishment, just came out with a report saying that the biggest single threat to New York's recovery is a potential deterioration of public services -- especially public transit. How have you been seeing all this play out?

Janette Sadik-Khan: Well, I think that the pandemic has challenged a lot of our underlying assumptions about, about health, about education, about politics. I mean, you know, see it every single day how this is affecting our lives. And it also transformed transportation overnight. When the economy seized up in March with a pandemic, traffic dropped 50% across the United States, in New York City it was down 94%, 80% in Los Angeles, 76% in London, and almost 90% in Paris. And transit ridership to your earlier point is also down, 65% in American cities. And now we've lost the equivalent of 400 million jobs, you know, in just the second quarter alone. So millions of more people are working from home and that's a transformative change. And in New York City, what we found before the pandemic, you know, to the investment strategies is the same strategies that were, cities are looking to follow now after COVID making streets more accessible for people who are walking and biking and making transit investments, those are the same strategies that we've followed in New York City to improve the quality of life and the sustainability of the city. Those are the same strategies. We created 400 miles of bike lanes as you know, 8.6 million New Yorkers. We had 8.6 million, you know, opinions on whether that was a good thing or not. But a lot of times what happens is that kind of transformative change while people are upset with the status quo it doesn't take very long until they adapt. And so what you're seeing in a lot of cities around the world right now is these mayors are making the kinds of investments that they would make by the year 2030 as part of their long range sustainability plans, they're making them in 2020.

Michael Kimmelman: First of all the resistance to public transit seems almost an American trait. And which is an odd thing because it's so connected to equity and health and the quality of air and so forth. And yet it runs up against this notion in America of, you know, a person's right to their own car, to a parking space. One of the most profound things I think about the changes that you helped bring about in the city is to remind people that the streets were not permanently this way. They weren't originally built for cars, overnight parking used to be illegal in New York City, that we've essentially adapted the city to the car. So, I guess one of the questions is how do we make people realize, or accept a change when it's attached almost to a politics of self-identity?

Janette Sadik-Khan: Well, you know, that's there's a lot of history behind those questions. And a lot of European cities emerged long before the automotive age and are built around walkable neighborhoods, narrow streets and public squares that the city kind of organically grew up around, but that doesn't explain everything. The longer answer is that some of the most people-friendly cities that we'd like to talk about as models for walking and biking, Copenhagen and Amsterdam, what we see today wasn't something that was handed down from antiquity. We can change our streets. And one of the very first things that they consciously did in the last 50 years is to reclaim their street space from cars and in response to traffic deaths and the oil shock of the 1970s. And they put down this brand new infrastructure to make it easier for people to walk and bike, So it's not just a European thing that we're seeing. We're also seeing US cities get that the road to recovery runs along our streets. And so, you know, in Seattle mayor, Jenny Durkan is making the 20 miles of her shared streets that were interim now permanent. Oakland's putting down 74 miles of shared streets, Chicago, Denver, dozens of American cities are pedestrianizing their streets. And you look closer to home in New York City, it's incredible to see what's happening, more than 10,000 restaurants have been certified to offer outdoor dining since this summer. They've taken up 15,000 parking spaces. So when you think about it, like back in New York City, if I had taken away 15,000 parking spaces, I would have had an extremely short tenure.

Michael Kimmelman: I mean, this is sort of what I was saying before that not your pinata for trying to take away a few parking spaces and in localized places, but obviously the pandemic has accelerated the ability and put a fire under, you know, the seat of a few politicians to make a much larger scale change. And beyond the pandemic, I mean, what's interesting about the pandemic is that like many crises in the past, it's also an opportunity for wholesale change, not just small scale change. So let’s say you are suddenly put in charge of solving global transit. What do you do?

Janette Sadik-Khan: Clearly we are at a moment where we... we can't go back to the status quo. Our status quo streets were broken. We had a million three traffic deaths on our roads every year, 4.2 million people dying of pollution. We have a climate crisis and global warming. I mean, the status quo is really not where we need to go back. And so we've learned the lessons that we can't work backwards on things like traffic. And we have to provide more choices for how people get around. People drive either when they don't have a choice or when they believe that driving is the best option. And so we need to change that equation by making better options for getting around, making it easier to take buses and trains and to walk and bike for more trips. And you're not going to wish people out of cars. And there's always going to be a pushback, but strong leaders understand that the road to recovery runs along our streets and we can make this happen. And they're the ones that are going to ensure that we don't just recover, but we prosper going forward. And there's always pushback when you do this. But there's a huge cost to doing nothing. And we can't have a car-based recovery. We need to be adapting our cities to people and not to cars.

Michael Kimmelman: Yeah.

Janette Sadik-Khan: And city leaders can't be standing around and just waiting to decide what role cars are going to play in their recovery. So ...

Michael Kimmelman: Well, fair enough, but I mean, you've had so far, I think maybe traffic, car traffic is back to at least 70% of what it was before the pandemic started and subways in New York City to stick with the New York example. Ridership is still way down. I think between buses and subways, it almost reached three million again, but that's far, far below what it was as a daily ridership. And one of the reasons obviously is fear, but it's a vicious cycle. Right. People are afraid, even if it's not in the science, there's no proof that that's dangerous, people were afraid to go. That reduces revenues. And I think the independent budget office now estimates a $4.5 billion hole in the city's 2022 budget. And, you know, that obviously is going to have implications for paying for the kinds of maintenance upgrades the subway system was failing before this, that are going to encourage people to go back. So, how do you overcome this problem that the very thing you need people to do more of is the very thing you now can't pay for?

Janette Sadik-Khan: Well, there are about four questions in that statement, right there. The biggest challenge we face coming out of this pandemic is fear. One of the problems that we have certainly on the transit front is there were a lot of headlines very early on about how transit was a super spreader. And in fact, what we've seen is transit is not a super spreader. Right. That's not been the problem. There've been studies after studies that show that that's, there's no link between transit use and coronavirus spreading. In Hong Kong, seven and a half million people, one of the highest transit-use cities in the world has less cases than Kansas. The issue is really more where you're going to and not how you're getting there. So the way out of this crisis runs along our subway rails and bus lanes, because we have to restore transit and we have to get people back to their jobs and that's part of the economic recovery that we need to get done. And New York and cities need a massive economic expansion in order to avert the kind of mobility meltdown that will swallow them if former commuters take to cars. So we really need a WPA for the MTA.

Michael Kimmelman: So you're talking about a federal influx of money as well.

Janette Sadik-Khan: Yeah. When you think about it, GM and Ford got an $80 billion bailout. Right? Taxpayers were repaid in fairly short order and we're going to see the same kind of return here. But we, and you see what's happening in terms of the federal strategy and bailing out the airlines. The airlines are getting this huge bailout, transit nothing. Transit moves 16 times the number of people than airlines do on a daily basis.

Michael Kimmelman: Yeah. Obviously there are headlines about rising crime in the subways and these, there's a kind of impulse to remember the dark days of New York as if we're going back to them. Crime rates across the city, while ticking up in some areas are spectacularly low compared to what they used to be. But it's partly about making people feel that they're safe to go back to public transit. That has to be something that obviously comes from leaders. Has to be something people convey from the top that this kind of transportation is, you know, fine.

Janette Sadik-Khan: I couldn't agree more. I mean, there's a lot that cities can do right now to win back riders and create a kind of post-COVID covenant. Riders are reassured when they see people cleaning the stations and cleaning the turnstiles and cities like Boston and Chicago have taken very strong messages forward and shown what can be done. I think New York needs to restore its subway service back to 24 hour service, you know.

Michael Kimmelman: I mean, there's a connection between public transit and economic Health in the city.

Janette Sadik-Khan: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean it’s, it’s the key to our recovery. It's critical that we do not just have a car-based recovery. You know, a worst-case scenario for New York is actually adding a traffic crisis to the health and economic and racial justice crisis. Cities aren't going to recover if people can't get where they're going quickly and easily and safely. And with unemployment at its highest level since the depression, getting people back to work depends on having safe options.

Michael Kimmelman: I mean, could you just make the case what the financial dividend is for a real investment in public transit? How would you, if you were arguing this in Washington, what are the first things you would say?

Janette Sadik-Khan: Well, there is no better investment than in transit. It's a four to one return on the dollar. That means for every dollar you invest in transit, there's $4 of return. And so when you think about the economic returns to businesses that are easily accessible near transit, you take a look at the property values of homes that are located near transit. There's a huge increase in property values when you are living in an accessible neighborhood, accessible by transit. You look at the environmental benefits. We can no longer pretend that we are not in the midst of climate crisis. And so there's that and then there's the basic pocketbook dividend. Owning a car $10,000 a year to buy, maintain and park. And so with that money, you can put that to education. You can put that to a down payment, you can take care of childcare and all the kind of expenses for living. So we really need to have a national strategy that is focused on a strong transit investment.

Michael Kimmelman: So Janette, just to end tell me what our cities should look like in say 10 years. What could we accomplish if we make the right kinds of investments and seize the opportunity of this moment, crisis though it is?

Janette Sadik-Khan: Cities around the world have been working on an outdated more of operating code. During the 20th century, we had this philosophy that work was over here and restaurants were over there and school was over here. And that kind of planning required people to drive everywhere. It kind of was the kindling that the world's traffic problems are built on. And so I think the smart mobility innovation of the 21st century isn't like spaceports and flying cars and using tech to reduce car traffic. I think it's building a city where you don't have to drive in the first place, what a lot of people are calling a 15-minutes city where you can get to everything you need within a 15 minute walk or bike. And it's not just a great mobility principle, although it's good for that. It's healthier to be able to get to places with active transportation. It's better for the local economy if everybody can buy from local merchants rather than national chains. It's better for access for older residents and great for kids. So, it's better for equity and opportunity so you can have better access. It doesn't limit your access to jobs and schools and services. And so many cities have been striving for that. You've probably seen that in Melbourne and Copenhagen, and when you look at a city that way the street can be very different. And so I think the question is how do we design cities and streets to accommodate the people who live there with enough room for people to be together and yet safely distant. And so I think they're all sorts of possibilities for how we can make that happen and it's really exciting to see the down payment of these new strategies that mayors are making all around the world.

Michael Kimmelman: Hey Janette, thank you so much for talking. This has been great.

Janette Sadik-Khan: Michael, wonderful to be with you.

Danielle Mattoon: Thank you for listening to The World As You’ll Know It.

Michael Kimmelman is the Architecture Critic for the New York Times. Julian Castro is the former mayor of San Antonio, Texas and former Secretary of Housing and Urban Development in the Obama administration. Janette Sadik-Khan served as the commissioner of the New York City Department of Transportation under Mayor Bloomberg and is now a principal with Bloomberg Associates. You can find links to their work and more in our show notes.

This podcast is brought to you by Aventine Research Institute, a non-profit dedicated to supporting work that helps us understand the long-term consequences of today’s decisions and behaviors on the future. I’m Danielle Mattoon, Editorial Director. The views expressed are those of the participants and do not represent those of Aventine, its employees or affiliates. This podcast is produced in partnership with Pineapple Street Studios. To find out more or listen to the full season, go to Aventine.org.



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